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Are we living in a cosmo village, or a cluster of enclaves?

What sets humans apart from other species is the society and our sense of community. As cave-dwellers, we hunted and fought much stronger animals. As a civilization, we build cities, canals, forts and roads. The strength of being a human comes from the fact that we can collaborate, work and mingle with people who are not genetically related to us. Traders, settlers and scholars moved from one region to another exchanging ideas and creating the flow of knowledge.

During the Dark ages, trade and travel was stopped and people build up walls and stopped all interactions with Asia and rest of the world. This led to widespread stagnations in the society and standard of living actually deteriorated in this period. The integration of culture and adoption of the ideas from the Muslim (Moslem) world brought in a renaissance (revolution) in the society and spurred us to the modern age.

Modern transport and communications have enabled people to travel far and wide. We can be in touch with people across geographical boundaries, but there is a long way to go before there is an actual assimilation leading to one global village. The biggest threat arising due to lack of integrated communities is communalism. From the childhood, we are taught not to talk to strangers. But after a certain age, you need to break this cocoon and reach out for the world. Since we have suspicion even after a thousand years of peaceful co-existence, fascists were able to channelize it to there own personal glory spurring the most destructive war. In India situation has just gone out of control. The ranks of both hindu fanatics and muslim jehadis are swelling and with each passing day, we witness either terrorist bombing or a communal violence.

What pains me the most is that we destroyed whatever communal harmony that existed. My grandfather did his entire education in Urdu. My uncle married a Muslim girl from Pakistan without much resistance from both the families. Today I cannot even imagine of a Hindu learning Urdu or of a marriage across the border.

In the name of purity of blood and preservation of culture we have made a mockery of ‘unity in diversity’. My only argument for them is that only the dead needs to be preserved. Like an alloy is always stronger than the constituent metals, culture becomes rich when societies are merged. I strongly believe that lack of assimilation of people is the biggest threat faced by humanity. Relationships are still being made on the basis of ethnicity, caste, creed or religion and people are living in an imaginary world by surrounding themselves with the news and information about what they want to hear rather than what the truth is. All long speeches about teamwork and ‘ Vasudhev Kutumbhkum’ (Earth is a family) are hollow unless we can integrate the minorities and immigrants (who in some cases just relocated generations ago from another part of the same country) living next door.

102 replies on “Are we living in a cosmo village, or a cluster of enclaves?”

I blame Hinduim for this. The religion breeds casteism. I am a Hindu and this is one aspect of the religion (among many others) which I don’t believe in. Probably the religion didn’t spread beyond the Himalayas because of this root problem. I have always wondered that why is it that there are so many Christians and Muslims in the whole world, but not many Hindus (Yes, I do understand that India’s population is more than 1 billion, so technically there are many Hindus). My main point is that there most of the Hindus are either in India or Nepal.

It’s sad that people give ethnicity, caste, or religion more importance. It is not more important that the person itself. In fact, I have never dated someone from my own caste/community.

actually Hinduism is a second generation religion … which means it has strong roots in mythology.. and has a wonderful story to explain each and every natural phenomena … while Christianity and Buddhism are 3rd generation religion which lays strong emphasis on morals and conduct.. the 3rd generation gos is perfect (i.e. he cannot commit any sin/mischief and he is forgiving …) which is totally opposite to what 2nd generation god .. who is ruthless and often commit mistakes.

so comparing a second generation and a 3rd generation religion won’t be a good idea… however if u compare hinduism with any other second generation religion like Greek/roman/Egyptian etc… you will find that none of them has ever (or even has the potential) to travel beyond the geographical location of its origin…

about caste/community… ya its so irritating that sometimes i feel like disowning the religion itself… these artificial barriers are only creating hindrance and harming the nation.
http://shocking.wordpress.com/2007/03/03/puri-temple-in-cleansing-act/

//I have never dated someone from my own caste/community.//
that makes 2 of us 🙂

Oh really? I didn’t know about the 2nd/3rd generation thing. Probably I’ll do some research on that. Thanks for letting me know about it.

Your other post is quite shocking. Didn’t know about that. I remember visiting lots of temples in Nepal, including Pashupatinath, where people from other religions weren’t allowed inside and everyone was proud of it. People from all over the world come to visit these temples and they don’t get to enter…wow! Some rules, I must say.

I read these wars on religion with much amusement. I have more atheist friends than belivers and wether we rant or not, all these barriers are crumbling fast and pragathi need not have to worry about it.

God as in Hindu has never said dont allow another human being inside its just crated by priests who wanted dominance and that does not mean entire hinduisum is wrong. Then again i woudnt agree that hindiusim did not go beyond himalayas because of this fact since propogation of this is just not the central idea of hindiuisum at all – if some zelots are trying such things – they will surely fail.

Coming to allowing people into temples is another misplaced cotraption. God is not just barricaded inside the sanctom sectorum – he is in the minds and hearts of those who believe and worhship him – this is something to be understood by all.

God is a power – a source of energy which can unvail into any form. For people who can not conceptulize this, hinduisum has provided gods in temples but stoping there and fighting over the form etc is NOT hinduisum. One needs to slowly and hopefuly transcand from formfull to formless which the muslims pick up right away. Practice ahimsa is what vasudaiva kutumbakam is all about. I would like to ask why nobody talks about where other temples which allow people are not talked about and only exceptions targetted?

Religion wars are not limited based on caste to hindiusim or asia lone – then pray tell me why are sunnis/shias fighting everywhere on earth?
Why have catholics and protestents fought each other?

The answer lies in your true heart of wishing and meaning of well being of all other life forms – forget god for a minute there.

//Some rules, I must say.//
i agree.. its the jagannath temple.. which means lord of the world… people from all religions should definitely be welcome…

//2nd/3rd generation thing//
ohh thats one of my theory… tracking how the religions evolved and how rituals and traditions developed.. i developed that…
the gist is.. first generation: burial rituals and simple ceremonies to honor the ancestors… it was the first time man realized that the dead needs to be honored.. and sought explanation for how a great man is suddenly lifeless and recognized the contribution of the deceased.

2nd generation: mythology and natural forces… very interesting stories were fabricated in helping a man understand why there is sunrise/sunset, why there is rains, storms and earthquakes… the gods were referred for the first time and they were always plural… each god had one attribute and some vices… the gods played games/committed mistakes and sins, often leading to deadly consequences on human population… and when they punished they were ruthless… when people go for war they worshiped one god, for rains another etc.etc. infact religion was more of a culture a way of life.

3rd generation: age of philosophy… it was the first time that there was a definition of what is good what is bad… what does humanity means and what separates us from the animals… what are our duties and what is kindness and forgiving… the god was united into one.. he was kind forgiving and had high morals. (in hinduism Rama and Krishna were created during the Bhakti period for the same effect) from a culture, the religion evolved into a practice… you have to choose/enrolled/baptized to become a part of the religion.

//I read these wars on religion with much amusement.//
well so do i.. but when i read about the number of people killed in communal violence .. this quickly evaporates.
// all these barriers are crumbling fast and pragathi need not have to worry about it.//
well what i feel is that intolerance is only growing.. and becoming more and more violent…

//Then again i woudnt agree that hindiusim did not go beyond himalayas because of this fact//
leave that… i ask u a simple question.. when some of the muslim rulers (Akbar) wanted to convert to Hinduism did our brahmins allow them? if we r so orthodox that we won’t allow Indians to become Hindu.. how can we allow foreigners to become one. again if they become one… which caste will they belong to?

//God is not just barricaded inside the sanctom sectorum – he is in the minds and hearts of those who believe and worhship him //
i agree that… but people do pay thousands of rupees to get a darshan at Tirupati… some people wear disguises to enter into shabri mala… why? because the god has fallen into the hands of wrong caretakers.

// hinduisum has provided gods in temples but stoping there and fighting over the form etc is NOT hinduisum.//
i totally agree with you bro. hindu fanatics have hijacked the religion and made it dirty.

//then pray tell me why are sunnis/shias fighting everywhere on earth?
Why have catholics and protestents fought each other?//
Asians are no different from people from other parts of the world… they think the best way to prove their superiority is by destroying non-believers.

I personally feel that caste and community thrives mostly in marriage market
and in the political scenario of a state, I am not sure about other states , but as for TN…. we have segregated the state into caste based vote banks..and the alliance is formed keeping in mind how many votes a party can fetch.

While the state is divided caste wise…the state is kept secluded from the rest of the counrty making language an issue….why do politicians love local language so much ? and what place does language have in politics…it shd be kept where it belongs…the world of literature.

I strongly feel that on a one on one basis we are out of all the prejudices and apprehensions that existed a few decades ago. In the present day it’s a matter of whether we find a person’s (or a family) association pleasant and enjoyable.

Also , when we live in a region where we find our own people in plenty we
feel comfortable in sticking with them….but when we are thrown in places like the US , all that we look for in friends is their atittude and not their ethnicity.

Today I cannot even imagine of a Hindu learning Urdu or of a
marriage across the border. //
I agree…but the reality is , wherever we are we tend to join a group that is atleast close to ours… for example there is a Pakistani driving instructor in the US who striked friendship with my sister and they used to feel as if they are from the same place !!

All long speeches about teamwork and ‘ Vasudhev Kutumbhkum’ (world is a small family) are hollow unless we can integrate the minorities //
I am surprised ! I was under the impression in this time and age people
cannot afford to confine themselves using caste and community as a criteria.

The ranks of both hindu fanatics and muslim jehadis are swelling and with each passing day, we witness either terrorist bombing or a communal violence. //
If its not religion its something else for anti-social elements.
what about naxals ? Its not the religion that is pushing them , its an unsatiable need for an one-upmanship that fuels them . If they are true to their religion , they’d just follow the same…that is ..’love all’ .

//and here I was wondering what the first generation was !//
sorry about that.. i am refining the theory for 5 years now… but its still far from perfect… will publish it when i am satisfied about it.

//segregated the state into caste based vote banks..//
yups and the evils start from there… to get reelected the party has to be true to its caste… whose priorities are not the same as that of the nation.

//why do politicians love local language so much ? and what place does language have in politics…it shd be kept where it belongs…the world of literature.//
well in a country where 1/3 of the population is illiterate… local language is one of the best way for the leaders to show they understand the pulse of the masses… look at laloo Yadav… he lives and talks like a commoner and hence the masses identify with him and reelect him.

//Also , when we live in a region where we find our own people in plenty we
feel comfortable in sticking with them….but when we are thrown in places like the US , all that we look for in friends is their atittude and not their ethnicity.//
never been to the USA, but i donot prefer to have a company which is exactly like me… u have any idea how ill would be his/her influence on me? friends should always have a different perspective… so that life is colorful and we all learn from our association… else we would be like a bunch of groupies.

//example there is a Pakistani driving instructor in the US who striked friendship with my sister and they used to feel as if they are from the same place !!//
so its true… once the outer shell of hatred melts away.. we all are exactly alike. i used to have a few Pak readers, and i was surprised to see we all share so much in common.

//I am surprised ! I was under the impression in this time and age people
cannot afford to confine themselves using caste and community as a criteria.//
even today if i go to a friends place (of both sexes).. the first questions their parents ask me are:
1) What is your surname… which is often followed by what does this surname mean… i.e. which caste do u belong to?
2) Where is your hometown/village?
now tell me if this is the icebreaker… what do u think that other person is thinking?

//If its not religion its something else for anti-social elements.
what about naxals ? //
naxals, civil unrest/war, protests etc. are issue based.. the people want something like jobs, developments etc.. to maintain its ranks the naxals needs to highlight the government and peoples attention to real issues.. which is in a way good.. for it shows that Indians can stand up for their belief… (normally i believe that our commitment is just hollow words)…
religion is based uprisings are bad.. for all u need to do is say Ayodhya/ Godhra/ Jihad/Fatwa etc… and 100s of people are massacred… often irrespective of their beliefs.. the instigators think they are doing a cleansing act, their duty and its harder to talk sense into them..

Hinduism should not the confused with its present day method of worship.

It has become a fashion to bash hinduism as we feel if we do that to our own religion , we can always say ‘hey I am one’ and use it as an excuse.

There are umpteen problems in each religion but we feel that its not proper to talk about other religions.

But bashing our own religion shd also be done with due fairness.

We do not have Hindus all over the world as the basic principle of Hinduism is
“any one who follows hinduism is a hindu” . Have u seen any hindu leader going from door to door asking ppl to convert to hinduism ?

I am proud of a religion that just lays down rules and leaves an option for anyone to follow it ! It spells confidence.

I love a religion that lets me be an atheist yet belong to that religion.
I appreciate a religion that does not compel me to visit the place of worship.

I admire a religion that does not offer ‘bribes’ or give ‘stipends’ to financially lesser blessed people as an incentive for conversion.

Akbar or no other person can become a hindu as
‘a hindu is born not converted’ ! that is the essence of the religion.
Its only the law that says that. No scripts or cult stands in the way of anyone practicing hinduism.

As for practices , rituals or ceremonies…what would u expect from a religion that has been there from time immemorial (2nd generation as u said) ? Things get diliuted ..adapted…contorted…twisted and totally out of the original shape.

The rituals and practices of each temple is their own making…and the good thing is that we are not compelled to follow any .

As for non-hindus not allowed inside temples..its a matter of debate.
For temples are not tourist places or museums…and is primarily meant for worship.

My maid refused to touch the ‘Thirupathi laddu’ that I gave her as she feels its being disloyal to her ‘converted’ religion 🙂

Condemn the rituals…not the religion !

[While the state is divided caste wise…the state is kept secluded from the rest of the counrty making language an issue….why do politicians love local language so much ? and what place does language have in politics…it shd be kept where it belongs…the world of literature.]

I couldn’t agree with you more. But unfortunately, I have seen hundreds of people here forming a “group” with people from the same state. People from TN stick with people from TN, people from AP stick with people from AP. These two communities are the largest here. I don’t know either of the launguages and am pretty much left out in all the conversations. I feel that it is more important for people to share ideas with each other and this can be facilitated only if we are to conversate in a language understood by everyone present. Not doing so is extremely rude. Yet, people continue to do that and they take pride in the fact that they are talking in their “mother tongue”.

All languages are very rich…and I really don’t know if English is being enforced upon the people of the state TN. I have never lived there, so I have no idea. But most of my friends here who are from TN refuse to talk in anything but Tamil, saying that Hindi is not their language. English- they want to use it only if they HAVE to.

So, there are barriers even among Hindus. When people are in a different country, “supposedly”, people of the same background come together. But in my opinion, I feel alienated by the people from my so-called background and I seek greater solace in people from another country, whether it be Pakistan (yes, I have a very good Pakistani friend) or US.

//Then again i woudnt agree that hindiusim did not go beyond himalayas because of this fact//
leave that… i ask u a simple question.. when some of the muslim rulers (Akbar) wanted to convert to Hinduism did our brahmins allow them? if we r so orthodox that we won’t allow Indians to become Hindu.. how can we allow foreigners to become one. again if they become one… which caste will they belong to?

Ankur – the point is hinduisum nowhere believes in propogating its own self and you may be right that they were not allowed to convert those days.

@sree, [As for non-hindus not allowed inside temples..its a matter of debate.
For temples are not tourist places or museums…and is primarily meant for worship.]

With due respect to your opinion, let me point out something here- non-hindus who choose to visit our country do so because they want to see something different and experience it. Even if it is primarily a place of worship, there shouldn’t be anything that should stop another non-hindu person from paying his/her respects.

[Condemn the rituals…not the religion !]

However distorted or dirty they might be, still, rituals are an off shoot of the religion and they can’t be seperated.

In fact, in lots of sociological theories, it has been explained in details. There are different manifestations of religions, including place of worship, or a diety and rituals and codes of conduct form a very integral part of any religion.

They were even more staunch earlier. I would say that they have become diluted now. The way people from so-called lower castes were treated was far more worse earlier.

Probably Hinduism has lots of good points as well as bad points. Though I wouldn’t call pointing out the bad apples as fashion.

Have you ever wondered the origin of the Word Hindu? If you have ever read the religious texts.. you will realize that nowhere there will ever be a mention of the word Hindu? why?

actually Hindu is not even a Indian word… we have a river called ‘Sindh’ which Arabs calls ‘Hind’ and which the Europeans call ‘Indus’.
Arabs called the inhabitants of the Hind Basin ‘Hindus’ and ‘Hindustan’ the region around it. British called it ‘Indus’ river and ‘India’.
So Hindus were always a way of life… and it was called a religion only by the Persians… never indians…

We do not have any conversions … because what will u convert to?????
actually in pure sense Pre Bhakti period Hinduism was not even a religion.
please understand Hindu like ancient Greek and Roman religion is a not a religion in the perspective we understand.. its a way of life, a culture practiced by the inhabitants of a particular geographical region… hence it never ever even cared to have a name for itself (yes that is the main attribute of the 2nd generation religion) and never had a conversion policy. (however it does wage wars against people who not respect their gods.. hence forcing the captured subjects to build temples in the foreign land)

will publish it when i am satisfied about it.//
another one to look forward to 🙂

to get reelected the party has to be true to its caste… whose priorities are not the same as that of the nation. //
the whole set up stinks

masses… look at laloo Yadav… he lives and talks like a commoner and hence the masses identify with him and reelect him. //
and some use flowery language to pull the crowd

never been to the USA, but i donot prefer to have a company which is exactly like me… u have any idea how ill would be his/her influence on me? friends should always have a different perspective… so that life is colorful and we all learn from our association… else we would be like a bunch of groupies. //
yes..makes sense.

so its true… once the outer shell of hatred melts away.. we all are exactly alike. i used to have a few Pak readers, and i was surprised to see we all share so much in common. //
ofcourse..that’s exactly what I am getting at…leaving politicians and fanatics..we guys are fine with each other on a one on one basis….
infact my sister says..oh she is from our place…while refering to Pakistanis.

1) What is your surname… which is often followed by what does this surname mean… i.e. which caste do u belong to?
2) Where is your hometown/village?
now tell me if this is the icebreaker… what do u think that other person is thinking? //
or in TN the usual ‘are u a non-vegetarian?’ kosten to make out if I am a Brahmin !
I know , it sucks 🙁
but lets look at the other set of ppl too , Ankur !
How many good friends u made in ur blog inspite of using ur pen name ?
It did’nt matter to them , rt ? I have hope 🙂

naxals, civil unrest/war, protests etc. are issue based.. the people want something like jobs, developments etc.. to maintain its ranks the naxals needs to highlight the government and peoples attention to real issues.. which is in a way good.. for it shows that Indians can stand up for their belief… (normally i believe that our commitment is just hollow words)…
religion is based uprisings are bad.. for all u need to do is say Ayodhya/ Godhra/ Jihad/Fatwa etc… and 100s of people are massacred… often irrespective of their beliefs.. the instigators think they are doing a cleansing act, their duty and its harder to talk sense into them.. //
I have no faith in these groups and I strongly doubt if they truly fight for the issues professed by them .

Hi Pragati,
we are to conversate in a language understood by everyone present. Not doing so is extremely rude. Yet, people continue to do that and they take pride in the fact that they are talking in their “mother tongue”. //
yes…I agree with u ! and I have heard that even in offices they ( shd I say ‘we’ 🙁 ) speak their mother tongue.
I make it a point never to speak in tamil or telugu when people who cant understand either are present .

But most of my friends here who are from TN refuse to talk in anything but Tamil, saying that Hindi is not their language. English- they want to use it only if they HAVE to. //
hmm…I guess we ppl from TN def. have a problem with speaking hindi…
I cant speak a sentence and while touring NI I find it difficult too…
even I feel left out in the crowd of NIs for even when they speak English it is generously sprinkled with hindi words…I am just the kind of person who wld pester them to translate it for me .So ultimately they learn to turn around and give me the meaning after they have used an unknown word.

But in my opinion, I feel alienated by the people from my so-called background and I seek greater solace in people from another country, whether it be Pakistan (yes, I have a very good Pakistani friend) or US.//
Frankly I feel u shd simply ignore it….it does’nt matter which place ppl come from (globally) as far as we are able to find happiness in their company 🙂

//There are umpteen problems in each religion but we feel that its not proper to talk about other religions. But bashing our own religion shd also be done with due fairness.//
I bash Indian policies, Hinduism and Baniyas a lot… the reason being.. I am one of them.. hence I feel I am qualified enough to bash it… However you will never find me bashing another religion, culture or country… why… because unless it does not effect me.. I should not resort to slandering, and I wish that you would respect that

//I am proud of a religion that just lays down rules and leaves an option for anyone to follow it ! It spells confidence.
I love a religion that lets me be an atheist yet belong to that religion.
I appreciate a religion that does not compel me to visit the place of worship.//
Well according to me.. Hinduism is not a religion in its true sense.. and that is the reason why these things are absent.

//I admire a religion that does not offer ‘bribes’ or give ’stipends’ to financially lesser blessed people as an incentive for conversion.//
I have studied in 2 missionary schools and I really admire the efforts which these missionaries put in providing quality affordable education (for people of all religion)… None of the 2 schools had anything that repelled people from other religion or made me doubt my own religion (except the presence of a cross in the classrooms and a tiny monthly magazine there was nothing Christian about the school for those who do not want to be a part of the faith.) However if I go to a Gurudwara, Madrasas or a Gurukul.. a non believer will really have a touch time in there.
Also you must understand most of the convertees are people from lowest strata of the society. Tell me if I am abandoned by people of my own religion… beaten to death when I try to enter the temple… what would I do… honestly I would go grab the first hope of salvation that I can find.

// ‘a hindu is born not converted’ ! that is the essence of the religion.
Its only the law that says that. No scripts or cult stands in the way of anyone practicing hinduism. //
Aren’t u contradicting myself… why would I like to convert if u do not even give me equal status?

//As for practices , rituals or ceremonies…what would u expect from a religion that has been there from time immemorial (2nd generation as u said) ? Things get diliuted ..adapted…contorted…twisted and totally out of the original shape.//
An act of cleanup.. and if it is beyond that.. discard it and adopt the new world order.

//As for non-hindus not allowed inside temples..its a matter of debate.
For temples are not tourist places or museums…and is primarily meant for worship.//
I agree that and as long as the other person is not disrespectful he should be infact encouraged… don’t tell me u have not heard of a hindu entering a Jain/Buddhist temple or a gurudwara? Haven’t u heard of people offering Chadar at the mosque or the burial site of a sufi saint…. Sai Baba (the original one) is widely worshipped by Hindus and he is a Muslim.

//Condemn the rituals…not the religion !//
as pragati pointed out… I wish I could separate the two.

@pragati…

//I feel that it is more important for people to share ideas with each other and this can be facilitated only if we are to conversate in a language understood by everyone present. Not doing so is extremely rude. Yet, people continue to do that and they take pride in the fact that they are talking in their “mother tongue”.//
yups i agree to that… and of my extensive travel throughout the length and breadth of the country I found only Gujjus are the considerate lot who switch to Hindi/english in the presence of a non-gujju.

//I feel alienated by the people from my so-called background and I seek greater solace in people from another country, whether it be Pakistan (yes, I have a very good Pakistani friend) or US.//
i agree we should be friends with people with whom our frequency matches… which need not necessarily mean people with whom our city/caste matches.

#masses… look at laloo Yadav… he lives and talks like a commoner and hence the masses identify with him and reelect him. //
and some use flowery language to pull the crowd#
whats the harm… a politician is like a Business man.. who gives people what they want… if they want to cleanup politics… people need to ask the right questions… have clear cut priorities… and be ruthless by not electing those who failed u… if u elect on the basis of stupid things like caste etc… u get what u asked for.

//infact my sister says..oh she is from our place…while refering to Pakistanis.//
thats lovely.

//How many good friends u made in ur blog inspite of using ur pen name ?
It did’nt matter to them , rt ? I have hope :)//
good point 🙂

//I have no faith in these groups and I strongly doubt if they truly fight for the issues professed by them.//
i have respect for people who have strong faiths and commitments… and are willing to die for it, (as long as it does not involve terrorism and killing the innocent)… you must understand not everyone has the luxury of a true democracy.. and these are the only people who can tell the tyrants what the masses want.

[yups i agree to that… and of my extensive travel throughout the length and breadth of the country I found only Gujjus are the considerate lot who switch to Hindi/english in the presence of a non-gujju.]

It’s funny that you felt that way. I stay in a building in Calcutta that’s filled with only Gujjus. In fact, the entire locality is a Gujju locality, if you know what I mean. They never switch to Hindi ..haha..in fact, I have picked up a lot of Gujarati being with them 🙂

I feel baniyas are idiots. They don’t teach their kids how to talk in Marwari/Rajasthani language. They take pride in not being able to talk in their mother tongue 😛 At least, I do. I feel very proud that I can’t speak in my mother tongue. I don’t know about other people, but most of the people in my family(1st, 2nd, 3rd cousins) can’t speak for nuts in their mother tongue.

I stayed in Vadodara and Ahmadabad.. and i must say Gujjus were the friendliest people I have ever met. but ya u r right.. its hard to generalize an entire community.

//I feel baniyas are idiots. They don’t teach their kids how to talk in Marwari/Rajasthani language.//
Firstly not all Baniyas are marwaris, not all of them are even Hindi speaking…
Secondly… Baniyas are very smart they were the first to realize that the Hindi has the potential of becoming a Pan India language… how else do u think a Marwadi from Rajasthan control the entire business of the West Bengal? They are the most mobile people who seek alliances across the borders of state (but orthodox enough to confine the marriages in their own community)
My paternal Grandfather is from Haryana, Maternal from Rajasthan, My Paternal Grandmother from Himachal, maternal from UP… (and all 3 marriages were arranged) how else would u think this network would be in place if everybody spoke different languages?

there is a saying.. if 2 aggarwal strangers are locked in a room.. they will dig each others history/family tree and find out a relationship between the 2 of them.

// They take pride in not being able to talk in their mother tongue 😛 At least, I do. I feel very proud that I can’t speak in my mother tongue.//
the idea of a language is to communicate… and whatever helps them is good enough… i hate the North Indians who have lived and settled in South, but who do not know a single word of the native language (and that includes me also)

Pragati
However distorted or dirty they might be, still, rituals are an off shoot of the religion and they can’t be seperated.
In fact, in lots of sociological theories, it has been explained in details. There are different manifestations of religions, including place of worship, or a diety and rituals and codes of conduct form a very integral part of any religion. //
yes…but the religion allows us to ignore and condemn every single one , does’nt it ? Thats the good thing about hinduism .

More often than not, we cherish the effect while comfortably forgetting the cause.

I am one of those who believe that hinduism was one of the best religion, if it can be called a religion rather than “A way of life”. I believe it was the epitome of freedom. Even today, there are no restrictions on praying/eating or anything in hinduism. Perhaps the defining factor of hinduism was only a set of moral guidelines.

I believe originally there were no castes. Hinduism was perhaps a civilization where many trades existed. People of same occupation flocked together as a society. Perhaps these societies became castes as we know today. Egos, which defines us humans, came into play and as a result each caste tried to show its superiority over other.

Slowly the initially moral guidelines faded.

What started as definition of “work you do” is now a perverted representation of “status in society”.

I feel that we are unfortunate in sense that we are remnants of a lost civilization, heritage.

Good news is that all is not lost..

We can stil try Yoga, Pranayam, Ayurveda, Dhyanam etc, vedic math etc ….

May be then we can at least start to learn what we lost in depths of history…

“Caste was defined by Work”
Now it is defined by Birth.
A day will come when it will be redefined by work..
Lets help the process.

@ankur, yeah you are right. I should have mentioned that by baniyas, I was referring to the Rajasthani baniyas.

@sree, maybe. I am not too sure what you mean by that.

@surendra movva, comment #24 was bang on 🙂

Ankur

whats the harm… a politician is like a Business man.. who gives people what they want… if they want to cleanup politics… people need to ask the right questions… have clear cut priorities… and be ruthless by not electing those who failed u… if u elect on the basis of stupid things like caste etc… u get what u asked for. //
hmm..

i have respect for people who have strong faiths and commitments… and are willing to die for it, (as long as it does not involve terrorism and killing the innocent)… you must understand not everyone has the luxury of a true democracy.. and these are the only people who can tell the tyrants what the masses want. //
I am not able to appreciate a cult that is clouded with mystery and a ‘robin hood’ atittude . And I come across so many discrepancies in their activities.

Pragati

what I meant was , I appreciate a religion that does’nt throw me out even if I condemn every practice and rituals and protest against it.
How many religions wld allow u that freedom ?

@suri
Welcome to E-Nagar…

//Slowly the initially moral guidelines faded.
What started as definition of “work you do” is now a perverted representation of “status in society”.//
yups.. and perhaps we r the only civilization that does not have dignity towards labor 🙁 which i think should be the basis of a moral life…
and yes I agree if the awareness is there.. we can reform and get back the glory 🙂
BTW.. i agree with Pragati… its a wonderful slogan 🙂

@sree…
//And I come across so many discrepancies in their activities.//
yups they are no saints… but some of the extremist freedom fighters (world over) have done a great job… and some did turn into Pol Pot.
and all democracies encourage dissent … thats why they have a separate class of political prison. (its a different matter that indians lacked extremist movement and political prison are misused)

@Sree, I think it’s a matter of choice and you are always free to do that. Religion isn’t binding. Only law is. Religion is more of a social and moral code of conduct by which people associate with each other. I believe that it has nothing to do with being a Hindu or a Muslim or a Christian.

@ankur, [yups.. and perhaps we r the only civilization that does not have dignity towards labor which i think should be the basis of a moral life…]

Yeah! I wish more people would realize this. I have heard people taking pride in the fact that they don’t need to wash their own dishes or launder their own clothes or clean their own toilets and that they have servants who can do it. If we would have to pay at least $10/hour, then we would definitely have more dignity towards people who physically labor to earn their daily bread.

ankur

(however it does wage wars against people who not respect their gods.. hence forcing the captured subjects to build temples in the foreign land)
This fanatism is common to most of the religions a few centuries ago.

I bash Indian policies, Hinduism and Baniyas a lot… the reason being.. I am one of them.. hence I feel I am qualified enough to bash it… However you will never find me bashing another religion, culture or country… why… because unless it does not effect me.. I should not resort to slandering //
yes..what if I am part of the same group and I too feel strongly about it ?

and I wish that you would respect that //
I wonder what makes u think I dont
“we feel that its not proper to talk about other religions.”

Well according to me.. Hinduism is not a religion in its true sense.. and that is the reason why these things are absent. //
ok..’the way of life’ gives me so much freedom.

I have studied in 2 missionary schools and I really admire the efforts which these missionaries put in providing quality affordable education (for people of all religion)… None of the 2 schools had anything that repelled people from other religion or made me doubt my own religion (except the presence of a cross in the classrooms and a tiny monthly magazine there was nothing Christian about the school for those who do not want to be a part of the faith.) //
I went to a convent too and I appreciate and admire Christian missionaries and even visit chapels…if not for anything atleast to rekindle memories.

However if I go to a Gurudwara, Madrasas or a Gurukul.. a non believer will really have a touch time in there. //
yes…that is one advantage Christianity has that can be attributed to its popularity.

Also you must understand most of the convertees are people from lowest strata of the society. Tell me if I am abandoned by people of my own religion… beaten to death when I try to enter the temple…//
its a crime to promote untouchability and I love hinduism for allowing legislatures to include laws that the society feels is decremental to the society or is plain unjust.

what would I do… honestly I would go grab the first hope of salvation that I can find. //
not because u believe in its preachings ?

// ‘a hindu is born not converted’ ! that is the essence of the religion.
Its only the law that says that. No scripts or cult stands in the way of anyone practicing hinduism. //
Aren’t u contradicting myself… why would I like to convert if u do not even give me equal status? //
yes..u r right…if u love the ways of hinduism…just follow it if u r not born one.

An act of cleanup.. and if it is beyond that.. discard it and adopt the new world order. //
yes..I welcome it…hinduism welcomes it.
fight for anything that is unjust to anyone in the society and it will abide by it.
This flexibility and adaptation of hinduism is one single factor I am proud to be Hindu.

I know if an injustice is done to me , I can fight it out without a horde of religious leaders descending down on me with warnings.
For all its glory I dont even care for these religious leaders
and their words or thghts have the least impact on my life.

I agree that and as long as the other person is not disrespectful he should be infact encouraged… don’t tell me u have not heard of a hindu entering a Jain/Buddhist temple or a gurudwara? Haven’t u heard of people offering Chadar at the mosque or the burial site of a sufi saint…. Sai Baba (the original one) is widely worshipped by Hindus and he is a Muslim. //
u missed my point..I said ‘its debatable”
yes..lay down some rules and by all means everyone is allowed anywhere.
I enter a church with footwear….but I wont do that in a temple.
but I respect each equally.

//Condemn the rituals…not the religion !//
as pragati pointed out… I wish I could separate the two.//
I do!
I hate Sabari malai….I love Hinduism.

@Sree and Pragati…
can you girls tell me why would u like to be part of a religion that u hate to the core? Why wait till the time u r kicked out.. just walk away with dignity.

Hey Ankur

can you girls tell me why would u like to be part of a religion that u hate to the core? Why wait till the time u r kicked out.. just walk away with dignity. //
why is it addressed to me ? :)) are u ok ? 😛

the sad part is, Ankur , even ‘u’ cant be kicked out 😛

@Ankur,

90% of my arguments here are against this religion, if you notice. I don’t like Hinduism. Period. You won’t really find big fans of this religion amongst the “lower strata” of the society. Why? Because the people who claim to follow the religion created it. No wonder most of the people who belong to the so-called lower castes converted to Christianity when they got the opportunity to do so. I would have done that too. It’s much better to lead your life as a respectable/non-lower class person and if some other religion allows one to shed that skin, then why not?

It’s weird that so many of the fights that took place in the Indian History were because of the ill effects of Hinduism. They are countless.

The truth is: How do you tell more than 1 billion people that this religion/way of life is not that great as we propose it to be? You can hate me for saying this, but this is how I feel.

@Sree,

Yes, religion isn’t binding. You can shun it anytime. Call yourself an atheist. On the other hand, try attempting a murder and see if law is binding or not. As a matter of fact, under IPC (forgot the section nummber), homosexuality is still not recognized. It’s an unnatural act. Can you be punished? Possibly.

You can give a particular religion as much importance as you want to. I am not talking about Hinduim here. I am talking about religion in general. I choose NOT to give religion too much of importance. What I achieve in life, my beliefs and morals are more important to me. I don’t believe in blindly following anything.

I don’t think it’s Hinduism that’s “allowing legislation to include laws that the society feels is decremental to the society or is plain unjust.” The Legislature by definition is supposed to function independent of a particular religion. It’s funny that you would say this, esp. in a country like India, that is supposedly democratic. In fact, if you have Hindu Marriage Act for Hindus, you even have a Special Marriage Act that you could follow.

//This fanatism is common to most of the religions a few centuries ago.//
yups earlier we had crusades, genocides… but the spirit has not died even today.

//yes..what if I am part of the same group and I too feel strongly about it ?//
then lets debate it out like mature individuals. 🙂

//I wonder what makes u think I dont
“we feel that its not proper to talk about other religions.”//
1) i do not have the complete info… there would be some subtle point which i would have missed and which would blow at my face.
2) i believe most people would be more receptive when a Hindu points out the flaw rather then when some outsider points it out… the idea of these posts is to create awareness.. not to tarnish the reputation and criticize.

//I went to a convent too and I appreciate and admire Christian missionaries and even visit chapels…if not for anything atleast to rekindle memories.//
i am sure they would have never forced u to go to a chapel.. but if u ever wandered inside, they would have welcomed you with open arms and showed u around… and i think that is acceptable 🙂

//yes…that is one advantage Christianity has that can be attributed to its popularity.//
same is true with missionary funded clinics and dispensaries and relief work. 🙂 although they give additional benefits to the Christians.. non believers are also welcome and treated free of charge 🙂 and that i believe is the greatness of the religion… I was really ashamed when one of them was burned alive in Orissa by Bajarang Dal.

//its a crime to promote untouchability and I love hinduism for allowing legislatures to include laws that the society feels is decremental to the society or is plain unjust.//
Yups Hindu civil laws are the most advanced ones. i sincerely hope that even Indian muslims join the bandwagon.

#what would I do… honestly I would go grab the first hope of salvation that I can find. //
not because u believe in its preachings ?#
actually that would be a stupid question to ask… most kids embrace a religion because their parents ask them to do so. How can u expect a toddler to understand the preachings?

#Aren’t u contradicting myself… why would I like to convert if u do not even give me equal status? //
yes..u r right…if u love the ways of hinduism…just follow it if u r not born one.#
🙁 and now i think this is the place to start the reforms.

//This flexibility and adaptation of hinduism is one single factor I am proud to be Hindu.
I know if an injustice is done to me , I can fight it out without a horde of religious leaders descending down on me with warnings.//
i do not know whether to laugh or to cry =)) :((
if i do something like that.. nothing much a bunch of RSS guys will come and lynch me… hinduism is for a conformist culture.. it does not tolerate difference in opinion or constructive feedback.
and like any engineering system which does not have a feedback loop… it has gone out of control.

//u missed my point..I said ‘its debatable”
yes..lay down some rules and by all means everyone is allowed anywhere.//
as long as i am respectful… i have a right to worship/visit whereever i want to… and nobody can stop me from doing that.

//I enter a church with footwear….but I wont do that in a temple.
but I respect each equally.//
care to explain? a guest has to obey the rules of the house.
its like visiting a friend.. if he takes his footwear off while entering the house… so do I.

//I hate Sabari malai….I love Hinduism.//
and why did i always had a feeling that ur family wanted to be a Christian 🙁 sorry if i am mistaken

hinduism was a term coined by british historians
who could not say indus as a broad term for folks living on the periphery of the said river…
and is generally a way of life based on wat is described as sanatan dharma
first of all it is still exhistant in parts of south east asia in customs of muslims of java sumatra indonasia in thailand and in cambodia

pragati i think castism is not the reason for non propogation of faith …. it is simply internal factors like fragmentation of kingships and lack of a pan indian kingdom like that of ashoka or cholas in south and rise of the moghuls and a lack of zealous preaching or in case of islam or born again christianity radical extreme radical preaching

it is kinda a fashion of people talking about temple rituals … yes they may be outmoded but at one time they were put in place for valid necessary reasons
First most people are allowed to see the temples
it is the garbhagriha or sanctum santorum that is out of bounds many a times,this i find fully valid
nyways what business do tourists have in the garbhagriha do they want to do pooja ?
plus we r talking now isnt that showing hindu liberalism, wouldnt such action in an islamic society elicit an instant fatwa by the deobandi clerics if it was a case with islam?

worse how many people talk about the rules and customs of the the christian churches and grekorussian orthodoxy ….
tell me do they allow hindus or christians in mecca kabaa or karbala why do people have to wear loins near kabaa and why do they throw stones at the so called shaitans????

about radicalism and babri masjid
first in case of spain when the moorish fled all the mosques were converted to churches
and all churches in places like serbia n turkey were
converted vice versa
we know that both christians and muslims destroyed temples by the thousands … they got state lands for free for purpose of conversion and propogation

how many were given back to hindus on independence?
babri masjid called as Masjid-i Janmasthan….built by babur stood on Ramkot (“Rama’s fort”) Hill n was nyways in ruins due to lack of use
there are thousand other such temples destroyed and converted to mosques ,
this is a property dispute stretching from 1885 not now and british and congress govts have always sided with islamists. the aimplb and deobandis dont really care abt babri masjid but its reprecussions cause they risk loosing the huge real estate of temple converted mosques like gyanvapi masjid and likes if a precident is set in this case …

Hindu radicalism is an ofshoot of extreme appeasement of muslims not vice versa…

@sree…
//why is it addressed to me ?//
because it was u who brought this point up… and because u love Hinduism because of this 🙁

//the sad part is, Ankur , even ‘u’ cant be kicked out//
i thought u were content with punching and knocking the daylights of me…

@pragati…
//90% of my arguments here are against this religion, if you notice.//
yups i did notice… and for most of the points I support u… because i also feel the religion is rotten… and if left unchecked the gangrene would spread.

// I don’t like Hinduism. Period.//
why do all the girls i know use Period… and end the argument 🙁

// You won’t really find big fans of this religion amongst the “lower strata” of the society. Why?//
everybody wants to lead a life of dignity… u rob me of it and i will look for ways to quit.

//It’s much better to lead your life as a respectable/non-lower class person and if some other religion allows one to shed that skin, then why not?//
yups and that is why Christian Missionaries are gaining strength day by day 🙂 and i welcome the move.

//It’s weird that so many of the fights that took place in the Indian History were because of the ill effects of Hinduism. They are countless.//
care to explain.. because i never knew Hindus ever united and waged a crusade in the name of religion… but they do rank very high on communal violence.. both against Buddhism and Muslims.
http://shocking.wordpress.com/2007/02/17/communal-intolerance/
http://shocking.wordpress.com/2005/06/01/did-buddhism-die-out-so-easily/

// How do you tell more than 1 billion people that this religion/way of life is not that great as we propose it to be? You can hate me for saying this, but this is how I feel.//
i love u for this.. i am also in the same boat.. the only difference is that i am a die hard optimist and i have yet not given up hope 🙂 i am sure that slowly and steadily we will reform…
and i have already started seeing changes… in cities and in offices people are becoming friends inspite of the their religion, caste and creed… slowly it will spread to all spectrum of society 🙂 we have a bright future

also i heard a lot of arguments of the culture at missionary run schools most run on land given scot free by british to help propogate christianity

these are post independence
my mom tells me that they were forced to attend chapel and religious class in their times ie 1940s, it was no diff for my father one of whose teachers kept making derogatory remarks of hindu gods

plus try searching The Missionary Position: Mother Teresa in Theory and Practice
for a sense of more unbiased reality dose

also see the state of christianity in its baston

http://techntrek.wordpress.com/2007/06/04/michael-moore-and-the-sodamobile/

@prax…
i was missing u 🙂
(I am deleting the duplicate comment)

//hinduism was a term coined by british historians//
i doubt that… the persians were the first to use the word Hindu and Hindustan… and Mongol/Persian discovered India way before British did…

//first of all it is still exhistant in parts of south east asia in customs of muslims of java sumatra indonasia in thailand and in cambodia//
yups I went to Thailand recently… the whole country has words from Ramayana spilled all over the landscape.

//we r talking now isnt that showing hindu liberalism, wouldnt such action in an islamic society elicit an instant fatwa by the deobandi clerics if it was a case with islam?//
i believe that ills of the other religion should not be used as a justification for ills in our religion…
i agree you can prevent the non believers/priests to go next to the idol… but a lot of temples do stop people from seeing the idol from a distance (see the link to the puri post)

//we know that both christians and muslims destroyed temples by the thousands …//
thanks for bringing this point up…
BTW there was an archaeological survey of the Ayodhya site.. that too under the BJP leadership.. and they found no evidence linking that there was a hindu establishment before the mosque.. leave alone an ancient site as old as the ramayana… I wonder why the day BJP is in opposition this temple/Mosque issue props up.

what i am saying is that whatever has been done has been done… there is no point in waging a communal war just for 1-2 acre of land? our gods r not so weak that they will lose all their powers if shifted to a site 100m away… or even better why can’t the 2 religions share the religious places….
I see Ganesha idol in a lot of Jain, Buddhist and Sikh temples…

not that all were bad then ie in the 40s, it was mostly the devout and people who could not have an open mind that were the nuts

some of my fathers profs at the wilson college mumbai were great human beings too and very considerate

thus it is the mindset not the relgion that really count but one thing is fr sure hinduism if understood correctly always helps open up peoples minds

As long as as you hate something you wont be happy.
Just dislike it..
And If you dislike something, fix the problem, at least make an effort.
or wait for someone to fix it for you…

So my dear ppl, Please stop hating. I want you all to be happy 🙂

In the end, your money, your status does not count. Only your happiness does…

( Well that is my philosophy )

@prax…
how can i miss ur views and kick u at the same time? one of the comment was duplicated… so i just removed it 🙂

maybe that were the 40ies.. but now these schools have matured enough 🙂 and have done a lot of good service in the primary and secondary schools sector esp in small towns… if u ever go to a small town, just ask them what are the best schools there.. undoubtedly 1-2 of them would be a Christian school. 🙂 but ya they are funded by religious organizations so have a bias towards Christianity… but i am sure they do not go to the levels of slandering other religion… atleast not today.

@Ankur,

Glad that I could find someone else who thinks that I am not mad. I don’t find many supporters.

[why do all the girls i know use Period… and end the argument]

Oh no! didn’t mean it that way. By “period”, I meant just that – I don’t really like Hinduism. You are free to add more points.

[care to explain.. because i never knew Hindus ever united and waged a crusade in the name of religion… but they do rank very high on communal violence.. both against Buddhism and Muslims.]

Yes. They never united. You are correct. What I meant is that most of the biggest mishaps in the history of our country have been because of religion. The fact that people could never unite in the true sense has always been exploited time and again. For instance, the Partition of India. Muslims and all other religions are still a minority in India. The term “Hindustan” was so misleading if we think about all the religious bodies.

@prax, I don’t think it’s possible to talk about Christianity in terms of Mother Teresa. I don’t dislike her. I don’t like her either.

Yes, most of the missionaries were started on land given by the British. You think the Hindu maharajas and the other Madrassas would ever give them any land? The Hindus wouldn’t even let people who weren’t Brahmins come and study. And then we have certain castes of Brahmins who take pride in the fact that they are “very intelligent” and that “it’s in their genes”. Sure, why not? Of course they are intelligent because their ancestors were among the few privileged who were allowed to study whereas the others weren’t.

The missionaries did a great job of opening schools where people could afford studying.

[my mom tells me that they were forced to attend chapel and religious class in their times ie 1940s, it was no diff for my father one of whose teachers kept making derogatory remarks of hindu gods]

People are not the same everywhere and things change from time to time. I did my entire school from Mt. Carmel and not once did I see anything of this sort. You cannot generalize like this. I strongly feel that the education that you receive in convent school is much superior to what you receive in other non-convent schools and I thank my mom for putting me in a convent school.

The video that you posted doesn’t prove anything. When you talk about US, you need to know that Midwest is the Bible Belt, where people are pretty conservative. Go to the East or the West Coast, where people are more liberal. I have Christians here coming to me all the time and they talk to me about Christianity with the hopes of converting me. This doesn’t prove a thing. Probably if Hinduism allowed conversion, then our priests would have done the same thing too. If your faith in a particular religion is strong, it shouldn’t matter to you how Christians behave.

//So my dear ppl, Please stop hating. I want you all to be happy :)//
all bow.. the great leader has spoken 😀

@suri…
very rightly said 🙂
and i have not given up hope.. 🙂

yes it was the farsis or persians who
most still cant say S and replace it by I even now
just like the ahura for them is asura for us..
but the whole debate on aryan migration were put up by british and american theorists
im a strong believer of the out of india theory
read frawley and talgeri
about ills and justifications
i was just giving an example of the state of contemporary thought process of people in both community s and conflict resolution mechanisms

about the asi not finding evidence,
can u prove for a certainty that ram or pandavas exhisted ? ebrahim or christ or moses exhisted ?
the time gap is far too large and finding hard binding evidence is almost impossible
how do we know if a temple existed there
a temple need not be a big fancy structure like the somnath it can be a 2×2 enclosure too
there could be a small fort there before
there was some evidence of a pre mosque structure but status quo was maintained

tell me one thing can cbi prove the existence of corruption by any politician? ever?
these r govt bodies and work at govt orders, it is in interest of all political parties moreso the congress and bjp to keep this alive rather than find closure cause they get votes from non free thinking idiots.
1-2 acre of land? man it is a lot lot more
and about coexhistance why have all indo originated religions coexhisted
look at verul or ellora hindu buddhist jain caves all coexhisting no problems
try gettin islam in the picture theyll say that this is haram destroy all the idols this is against islam and hadeeth.. ur grandmoms times were different
the muslims there were still hindu in mindset
now the congress and communists celebrate and help propogate tabligi, deobandi wahabi islam …

Pragati
Yes, religion isn’t binding. You can shun it anytime. Call yourself an atheist.//
ok.

On the other hand, try attempting a murder and see if law is binding or not. As a matter of fact, under IPC (forgot the section nummber), homosexuality is still not recognized. It’s an unnatural act. Can you be punished? Possibly. //
try family laws and see what role religions play !

You can give a particular religion as much importance as you want to. I am not talking about Hinduim here. I am talking about religion in general. I choose NOT to give religion too much of importance. What I achieve in life, my beliefs and morals are more important to me. I don’t believe in blindly following anything. //
good.

I am not a ‘madi’ ( unadulterated Hindu rituals) person myself and I dont follow a thing of what any religion preaches whether before or after kostening…. I am prepared to live without a religion…but if I have to have one..give me Hinduism anyday as its one religion that does’nt interfere in my personal life.

I don’t think it’s Hinduism that’s “allowing legislation to include laws that the society feels is decremental to the society or is plain unjust.” The Legislature by definition is supposed to function independent of a particular religion.//

is it ?

It’s funny that you would say this, esp. in a country like India, that is supposedly democratic.In fact, if you have Hindu Marriage Act for Hindus, you even have a Special Marriage Act that you could follow.//

hmm that’s comforting…but let’s not forget India is secular.
I choose not talk about the workings of any other family law.

//Glad that I could find someone else who thinks that I am not mad. I don’t find many supporters.//
🙂 no u r not mad… u are just frustrated with the rotting system… a lot of people are who also feel disgusted :(.. i know i am one, but then there r not many people who call me sane either 🙁

//Oh no! didn’t mean it that way. By “period”, I meant just that //
just joking… i was just trying to add a lighter moment to otherwise serious discussion 🙂

//Yes. They never united. You are correct. What I meant is that most of the biggest mishaps in the history of our country have been because of religion. //
let me put it this way:
“a good man does the good thing, and the bad man always commits evil…
but it takes a religion to make the good man commit evil”

//The fact that people could never unite in the true sense has always been exploited time and again. For instance, the Partition of India. Muslims and all other religions are still a minority in India. The term “Hindustan” was so misleading if we think about all the religious bodies.//
so u mean to say that because of lack of religious unity there were those fights?
but somehow i believe it is good that Hindus do not have a central governing body…. i cannot even imagine what kind of ills we would have committed if we had one.

just goto rampur or to north kerala to get a better picture forget that just hear a sermon from a local mosque or religious school , i personally stood and heard a mulla preaching for a whole hr at musafirkhana in mumbai , they dont teach religion there they teach hatred , this is good that is bad this is allowable that is not quran says this hadees says this
bla bla bla ….
that too to 3 and 5 yr old kids

but somehow i believe it is good that Hindus do not have a central governing body…. i cannot even imagine what kind of ills we would have committed if we had one.
rightly said to this i agree cent per cent
this is on the plus side
sadly we cannot extract benifits from the state like the others do as we dont have the power to collective bargaining … but on the flip side who needs them nyways ?

id say muslims are a majority because they collectively bargain in comparison hinduism has so many sub castes castes and communities if that is not all we also have divisions on bases of language and region
v r never united so in a sense we r the minority

@prax…
//most still cant say S and replace it by I even now
just like the ahura for them is asura for us..//
i never thought of it that way 🙂 thanks

//but the whole debate on aryan migration were put up by british and american theorists
im a strong believer of the out of india theory//
same here.. there r just too many similarities.. plus even the Ramayana talks about spreading of aryan culture in the way that gives it a feeling that Dravidians were natives and Aryans were immigrants.

//read frawley and talgeri//
i will…. can u suggest any good starting points for their theory.

//about the asi not finding evidence,
can u prove for a certainty that ram or pandavas exhisted ? ebrahim or christ or moses exhisted ?//
but archeology world over has solved/validated a lot of mysteries and theories… i was hoping that this dig would also do the same.

//a temple need not be a big fancy structure like the somnath it can be a 2×2 enclosure too//
what i am pointing is the futility of a ethnic cleansing for a 2X2 structure. 🙁 the cost paid by both sides r just too much.

//these r govt bodies and work at govt orders,//
exactly.. and this dig happened when BJP was in power… so i think Hindus were well represented. 🙂

//try gettin islam in the picture theyll say that this is haram destroy all the idols this is against islam and hadeeth..//
you do your good wills.. i am sure others will reciprocate.. i know its a tough path.. but Gandhi was successful and so would we. 🙂

Okay, my last comment “tonight”, if I may still call it night time, considering the fact that it’s 5:10 am *gulps*

@Sree,
[try family laws and see what role religions play !]

You only re-inforced what I said 🙂 That laws are binding and religion is not. Family laws are based on different religions. There are different family laws for different religions.

[give me Hinduism anyday as its one religion that does’nt interfere in my personal life. ]

Everybody thinks so about his/her religion. I think so too, about Hinduism. I choose to ignore my religion and live a comfortable life 😉 In essence, it doesn’t interfere with my personal life. But this doesn’t mean that I think that the religion itself is good.

[I choose not talk about the workings of any other family law.]

If India is secular, then you should. I have read most of the Acts in details and can assure you that they don’t even resemble each other closely.

[is it ? ]

Don’t know what you mean by this.

@Ankur,

[ no u r not mad… u are just frustrated with the rotting system… a lot of people are who also feel disgusted :(.. i know i am one, but then there r not many people who call me sane either ]

Yeah, you are right. Pretty upset, I would say. I get more upset when people behave ignorantly and refuse to see the light of the day. For them, ignorance is bliss. Rather, for me, ignorance would have been bliss too had I ignored everything around me 🙁

[so u mean to say that because of lack of religious unity there were those fights?]

No, not because of lack of unity. They would happen anyway 😛 It’s easy to get people to fight with each other when there are so many differences among them. How long would they even stay united?

[but somehow i believe it is good that Hindus do not have a central governing body…. i cannot even imagine what kind of ills we would have committed if we had one.]

Hahaha..thank god for that! Wait a minute, which God? 😉

@prax….
//sadly we cannot extract benifits from the state like the others do as we dont have the power to collective bargaining … but on the flip side who needs them nyways ?//
yups thats true… otherwise the vote bank politics would be even more dirty. 🙁
btw u would find this survey interesting.. and disappointing at the same time
http://www.economist.com/daily/chartgallery/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9354590

@sree…
//now where am I..and whom shd I be replying //
=)) u r in a soup and Pragati and myself would burn u at stake for not agreeing to our opinions. Suri would have loved to join me but unfortunately he is a veg…
😀 bon appetite.

@pragati…
//Okay, my last comment “tonight”, if I may still call it night time, considering the fact that it’s 5:10 am *gulps*//
good so in 2 hours it would be morning and u will serve us some comments along with a delicious breakfast and not to mention the wonderful soup 🙂

//It’s easy to get people to fight with each other when there are so many differences among them.//
call it Xenophobia. and yes world over people face the same trouble.

// How long would they even stay united?//
as long as there is a threat people/country/community stays united… the moment it vanishes we start splitting based on differences… and we cannot find one… we create one (like protestants, sia sunni, caste system etc. etc.) its a way of life.

the whole radical thought process says my way or no way M Gandhi was also a radical though he may have been a saint remember he didnt want an ordinary death he wanted to die by the hands of a hindu so his theory would be validated
same was preached by Muhammed

Hasnt history not taught u that ahimsa is useless with islam , they dont have a conscience …..
from the times of prithviraj chauhan we havent still learnt
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prithviraj_Chauhan
havent ghouri ghaznavi taught u ?

nyways u can sing pete segers song all ur life

//Hasnt history not taught u that ahimsa is useless with islam , they dont have a conscience //
maybe… but i will not lower my morals by committing an evil… if i am wrong i would be killed for my believes but atleast i will have the pleasure of dying with a clean conscious. and to me its worth dying for.

however i am very strongly and rigidly for reforms in Hinduism… so that we can lead by example… 😀

i meant my way or no way in context of muhammed

i also did not mean to demean or think ill of Gandhi
all said and done he was a devout hindu and great visionary stalwart and thinker but most of all a good human being, most politicians dont follow or want to follow in spirit. they just want to make him god, this i think he would himself detest..
his quote
I hate privilege and monopolies. I reject everything that cannot be shared with the rest of the people.

to me he is an enigma because i still think that there was a hypocracy in Gandhi,who especially in his later years, would resort to fast unto death
to get his demands met (extreme form of my way or no way)
one cant deny that he is responsible for payment of Rs. 55 crores be made to Pakistan which was the seed money for the war, which lead to unnecessary deaths

Godses account of why he did his deed is very interesing and also a must read ,available on the net, even after being banned by a socialistic democratic govt .

but what wd the world come to if good humans like u dont exhist i was like u once
see 2001 a space odyssey .. i just recently did
also read darvin natural selection etc

last post too much time spent this is futile

@prax…
//i meant my way or no way in context of muhammed//
i agree… i have been reading and enjoying your comments… they are well researched and backed with lots of citations and references.
islamic terrorism is a very big problem… and its hard for anybody not be isolated from it.. and it would be foolish if like ostriches we close our eyes and look the other way.. hoping that it will pass.

//most politicians dont follow or want to follow in spirit. they just want to make him god,//
yups Gandhi becomes a strong way to prove your point.. and often those who use it attach no value to his concepts and theories. 🙁

//i still think that there was a hypocracy in Gandhi,who especially in his later years, //
i agree, esp when he bypassed Patel to become the Prime Minister of the country. but then in Ramayana… Ram asked Lakshman to touch the feet of Ravana and worship the greatness of that knowledgeable man (and not the devil inside him)… and asked him to learn from his mistakes… i do the same with the role models and leaders. 🙂

//one cant deny that he is responsible for payment of Rs. 55 crores be made to Pakistan//
think it like this way… what r u going to do about it…
wage a 2000cr war costing millions of lives to get it?
I think Gandhi thought that like any new venture.. even a new country needs some seed money to start and flourish.
plus think it like that way that 55 cr was part of several 100s of cr which the United government of India would receive from the British treasury. In good faith Gandhi asked the money to be divided in the proportion of the population of the 2 countries the United India was splitting into.

yes it was more than what pakis expected, but then think it like an investment done in good faith.. that went horribly wrong

first the british were n r always pro pak as they have always feared a resurgent India
remember in history we did influence most south asia and still do to a smaller extent….
most of the agreements from partition deed and giving hindu dominated karachi to pakistan to the water treaty were biased towards pakis

Gandhi always thought that he could convince and appease muslims into not wanting partition and the said amt was just a failed attempt at that

he wasnt that naive -he was sufficiently informed of the repercussions of that action by patel n others.
nyways in his later yrs he was highly irrational
or was he a bit nuts due to his regime of self starvation and denial of nourishment- yes lack of food is a reason enough for the brains to degrade

i read somewhere about his real wish to die a martyrs death , this i attribute to his desires of proving the correctness of his actions even after his failure to prevent partition

one must read godse who as a person with an intellectual bent changed form a follower to an assassin some excerpts

I don’t refute Gandhi’s theory of non-violence. He may be a saint but he is not a politician. His theory of non-violence denies self-defence and self-interest. The non-violence that defines the fight for survival as violence is a theory not of non-violence but of self-destruction.

because Jinnah insisted and because Gandhi took his side, India was divided, in spite of opposition from the nation, the Cabinet. An individual is never greater than a nation, Nana. But Gandhi has stared considering himself greater than the nation.

@prax…
welcome.. i thought u abandoned us…

actually i think that Jinnah himself never wanted partition… he asked for a separate nation just as u would normally bargain.. start with an unrealistic price and then negotiate to a reasonable one… unfortunately for him and rest of the country he got what he asked for 🙁

but recently I have been thinking… all the partition bloodshed was confined to the Western borders of the nation… West Bengal and rest of the country saw little or no displacement. and also none of the charismatic leaders instigated this violence…
then why did it happen?
my theory is there was lots of hatred and distrust already… and united india could not have stayed united it this hatred was out of their system.

On the positive side.. partition created a breed of intelligent and hardworking entrepreneurs… they had seen the worse and who had nothing to lose… they started at the lowest levels of economic strata and quickly galloped their way to the top and became rich and powerful.
In both India and Pakistan there are lots of cases where displaced people started as a daily wagers and quickly controlled the business and the industry.

Pragati

Everybody thinks so about his/her religion.//
well..I do not want to elaborate..so I am leaving it at that.

[I choose not talk about the workings of any other family law.]
If India is secular, then you should. I have read most of the Acts in details and can assure you that they don’t even resemble each other closely.//
hmm

[is it ? ]
Don’t know what you mean by this.//
never mind !

It was fun discussing this topic with u 🙂
I hope u r a vegetarian too 🙂 so I will be spared in the soup :))

Hello Ankur 🙂

because it was u who brought this point up… and because u love Hinduism because of this //
:)) dont tell me u r not having a balle 😉

i thought u were content with punching and knocking the daylights of me //
no I am not 🙁 u r still talking :))

i am sure that slowly and steadily we will reform…
and i have already started seeing changes… in cities and in offices people are becoming friends inspite of the their religion, caste and creed… slowly it will spread to all spectrum of society we have a bright future //
see ! i knew u’d agree 🙂

//yes..what if I am part of the same group and I too feel strongly about it ?//
then lets debate it out like mature individuals. 🙂 //
why ? I dont recall sending any olives to any ogre !

//I wonder what makes u think I dont
“we feel that its not proper to talk about other religions.”//
no..that’s not how it is read…
( and I wish that you would respect that //
I wonder what makes u think I dont )
and the quote is part my previous comment.

1) i do not have the complete info… there would be some subtle point which i would have missed and which would blow at my face.
2) i believe most people would be more receptive when a Hindu points out the flaw rather then when some outsider points it out… the idea of these posts is to create awareness.. not to tarnish the reputation and criticize.//
ok.

i am sure they would have never forced u to go to a chapel.. but if u ever wandered inside, they would have welcomed you with open arms and showed u around… and i think that is acceptable 🙂 //
very much and I too know that I am not invited to join the communion.
I dont feel left out..I dont complain and I respect it.

//yes…that is one advantage Christianity has that can be attributed to its popularity.//
same is true with missionary funded clinics and dispensaries and relief work. :)although they give additional benefits to the Christians.. non believers are also welcome and treated free of charge 🙂 //
yes..even now the loving look of my ‘sister’ comes to my mind.

and that i believe is the greatness of the religion… I was really ashamed when one of them was burned alive in Orissa by Bajarang Dal. //
these fanatics rather lunatics 🙁

//its a crime to promote untouchability and I love hinduism for allowing legislatures to include laws that the society feels is decremental to the society or is plain unjust.//
Yups Hindu civil laws are the most advanced ones. i sincerely hope that even Indian muslims join the bandwagon. //
who is to bell the cat ?

#what would I do… honestly I would go grab the first hope of salvation that I can find. //
not because u believe in its preachings ?#
actually that would be a stupid question to ask…//
really ? how stupid ?

most kids embrace a religion because their parents ask them to do so. How can u expect a toddler to understand the preachings? //
as ‘stupid’ as this ?

How can u expect a toddler to understand the preachings? //
as much as I expect that toddler to understand ‘insults’ , ‘injustice’ and other mis-deeds that pushed him to go for ‘conversion’ .

yes..u r right…if u love the ways of hinduism…just follow it if u r not born one.#
:)and now i think this is the place to start the reforms. //
good luck 🙂

//This flexibility and adaptation of hinduism is one single factor I am proud to be Hindu.
I know if an injustice is done to me , I can fight it out without a horde of religious leaders descending down on me with warnings.//
i do not know whether to laugh or to cry =)) :(( //
dont cry. just laugh it off 🙂

if i do something like that.. nothing much a bunch of RSS guys will come and lynch me… hinduism is for a conformist culture.. it does not tolerate difference in opinion or constructive feedback.
and like any engineering system which does not have a feedback loop… it has gone out of control. //
I have’nt seen anyone interfering with the workings of the Law and if there is any injustice done to me..that is where I’d seek help.

//u missed my point..I said ‘its debatable”
yes..lay down some rules and by all means everyone is allowed anywhere.//
as long as i am respectful… i have a right to worship/visit whereever i want to… and nobody can stop me from doing that. //
yes and
” a guest has to obey the rules of the house.
its like visiting a friend.. if he takes his footwear off while entering the house… so do I. ”

/I enter a church with footwear….but I wont do that in a temple.
but I respect each equally.//
well…we are expected to follow some rules which wld not make sense to a person from another culture.
..if I want to enter the place I’d give it respect and follow the rules.

and why did i always had a feeling that ur family wanted to be a Christian
sorry if i am mistaken //
no u r not , atleast not completely 🙂 afterall u got it st from the horses mouth 🙂
my mom loves christianity and always wanted to become a christian..
(well..she went to a convent too..and was taught by Irish nuns.
Catholicism was part of her curriculam and she was drawn to it.
In our times it was ‘Moral Instructions’ for Hindus. )
My dad has the least objection but my mom does’nt want to take Baptism
as that wld prevent her from performing pooja or attending temples 🙂
(see any point there ? 😉 )
So our pooja room has ‘Rudraksh mala’ and ‘Rosaries ‘

//:)) dont tell me u r not having a balle ;-)//
yups first this long chain of comments.. and now this soup… what could be better… 🙂

#i thought u were content with punching and knocking the daylights of me //
no I am not 🙁 u r still talking :))#
and my first impression was u r a sweet harmless innocent little girl 🙁

//see ! i knew u’d agree :)//
‘jiski lathi uski bhais’
its hard to argue when pitted against superior numbers.

#then lets debate it out like mature individuals. 🙂 //
why ? I dont recall sending any olives to any ogre !#
whats that?

//yes..even now the loving look of my ’sister’ comes to my mind.//
and when i add it to the fact that she is doing for the love of humanity and that she and I do not belong to the same religion… i feel indebted.

//who is to bell the cat ?//
good question.

#i do not know whether to laugh or to cry =)) :(( //
dont cry. just laugh it off :)#
🙂 being a Bania.. i am a bit stingy… will a smile do?

//I have’nt seen anyone interfering with the workings of the Law and if there is any injustice done to me..that is where I’d seek help.//
good luck.. the mob is standing on ur doorsteps with torches.. and u have still not lost faith 🙂

//well…we are expected to follow some rules which wld not make sense to a person from another culture.
..if I want to enter the place I’d give it respect and follow the rules.//
well there r lots of rituals and rules in Hinduism which does not make any sense to me either. 🙁

//no u r not , atleast not completely 🙂 afterall u got it st from the horses mouth :)//
i know u r Equine… but calling urself a horse is debatable.

//my mom loves christianity and always wanted to become a christian..//
wow… but i wonder why u were saying so many ills against conversion.

//So our pooja room has ‘Rudraksh mala’ and ‘Rosaries ‘//
i should visit ur place

=)) u r in a soup and Pragati and myself would burn u at stake for not agreeing to our opinions.//
Yes..I wld be an alphabet soup and I’d spell “run for ur lives” :))

Suri would have loved to join me but unfortunately he is a veg… //
does he like nuts ? 😉

😀 bon appetite.
and to Suri too 🙂

This debate seems to have ended. Anyway, I guess there is no end. We could keep talking about our viewpoints forever =))

It was nice discussing it with your guys.

And sree, yeah, I am a vegetarian. 🙂

yups 🙂 it was a nice discussion.. i got a learn a lot of points and new viewpoints 🙂
but the result is… its almost 11pm and i am still in office:(

Hey Ankur..u r still commenting :))

yups first this long chain of comments.. and now this soup… what could be better… //
the capsaicin in the soup 😛

and my first impression was u r a sweet harmless innocent little girl //
and u also told me first impressions are lasting :))
but , u also know urself 😉
u can bring out the worst 😛

its hard to argue when pitted against superior numbers. //
thanks…but I am fine on my own

why ? I dont recall sending any olives to any ogre !#
whats that? //
hey…its about shrek dropping eyeballs in his drink 🙂

and when i add it to the fact that she is doing for the love of humanity and that she and I do not belong to the same religion… i feel indebted. //
c’mon what has religion to do with it ?
I’d feel grateful anyways.

//who is to bell the cat ?//
good question. //
but there is absolutely no answer 🙁

being a Bania.. i am a bit stingy… will a smile do? //
no , I want all of the 28.4327898 :))

you have to tell me what Bania is ?
u guys seem to be using it often !

good luck.. the mob is standing on ur doorsteps with torches.. and u have still not lost faith //
they are fanatics and atleast they dont have the approval of the community.

well there r lots of rituals and rules in Hinduism which does not make any sense to me either //
its just a matter of following what is expected at the premises.

i know u r Equine… but calling urself a horse is debatable //
is Equine different from a horse ?
all debates are reserved for another day 🙂

wow… but i wonder why u were saying so many ills against conversion.//
now..that’s putting words in my mouth.
I merely said I am against offering anything material for conversion .

//So our pooja room has ‘Rudraksh mala’ and ‘Rosaries ‘//
i should visit ur place //
anytime !

@Pragati
hey I am happy to know that u r a vegetarian :))

//Hey Ankur..u r still commenting :))//
u don’t get to such quality discussions all the time… thanks to all of u for enriching it 🙂

//but , u also know urself 😉
u can bring out the worst :P//
i just show the mirror.. its up to u to see what u want to see.

//hey…its about shrek dropping eyeballs in his drink :)//
tell me more about it 🙁 yes i saw the movie.. but i don’t recall it.

//c’mon what has religion to do with it ?
I’d feel grateful anyways.//
yups 🙂

#being a Bania.. i am a bit stingy… will a smile do? //
no , I want all of the 28.4327898 :))#
thats a wonderful one 🙂 =))

//you have to tell me what Bania is ?
u guys seem to be using it often !//
:)) what do u think it is… its the trader community in the indian caste system. people often look down towards us… almost as much as they do the jews… esp if they are from West Bengal.

//is Equine different from a horse ?//
donkeys, asses, and mules also belong to the same category… and so do the pegasus and unicorns… so make ur pick 🙂

//all debates are reserved for another day :)//
ya i guess lets call it the day 🙂

//now..that’s putting words in my mouth.
I merely said I am against offering anything material for conversion .//
ok 🙂

#i should visit ur place //
anytime !#
Thanks.. I will look forward to it next time I am in Chennai 🙂

[good so in 2 hours it would be morning and u will serve us some comments along with a delicious breakfast and not to mention the wonderful soup :)]

sure, what kind do you like? Tomato basil, split pea, lentil, potato, chicken….let me know about the brand too. 🙂

[but the result is… its almost 11pm and i am still in office:(‘

ouch! that sucks 🙂

@pragati…
branded soup? i was looking forward for something homecooked.. from fresh vegetables… but anything u like should be good enough.

hey.. i wasted the entire day on this post… what else would u expect 🙂 but honestly it was worth it 🙂

Branded will be better than homecooked in my case 😐 Just joking. I am not that bad.

Yeah, it was a nice post. Thank you for broaching the topic Pretty much sacrificed my entire night on it. 🙂

get ur facts right ankur
yes jinha was initially using it as a bargaining tool latter after the separation from russi and constant illness his attitude changed nyways the muslim league had become too strong and too big to handle ps there was bloodshed in bihar and bengal too, cant remember now but distinctively remember cases of hindu slaughter in bengal it was kept away from public knowledge after some muslim league guy hand a talk with gandhi and gandhi did his fast routine..
ya he i think was Suhrawardy.just chk
The Statesman wrote about the ensuing riots:
“ The origin of the appalling carnage- we believe the worst communal riot in India’s history- was a political demonstration by the Muslim League

the south indian muslims were never influenced by the deobandi or wahabis and most followed local customs and traditions

nyways post independence look at the migration of hindus from bangladesh and pakistan the jnk govt still doesnt give citizenship to most who fled pak using kashmir after 1950 ..
im sorry i think u trust the balbharati and socialist brainwashing books far too much they have twisted history to show islam in very good light while belittling hinduism
my theory is simple islam always instigates
hindus always retaliate this is 99% statistic, muslims are like a kettle they whistle fast hindus have a pressure cooker mentality, hold it in for a long time and pop goes the whistle and then the lid
then expect a whole lot of mess
also ur last contention is also quite wrong family and state supported entrepreneurs only flourished during the indira and socialist era (those who paid into congress coffers only got permits )
the whole boom happened post 1900s liberalization
that too rather reluctantly out of desparation and bankrupcy and vaccum post rajivs death which alladin will want to throw the lamp?
the entrepreneurs fled to America in economy class loads till the 2000s now the flow is reversing

retail will get the allotment at 890/- … however if u have applied by paying 250/- you will have to wait a lot… the ICICI will serve u notice.. and u will have to use it to pay at the ICICI branch… that would take additional couple of days.

//man u still need to read a lot before making theorys//
agreed.. that is why i ask more open questions in my posts, then attempting to answer them.

//was it built at 940 then as retail disc was rs 50 if im not mistaken
so my estimates r right//
yups….. it closed at 943 on the closing day of the FPO… so 940 is exactly what people had predicted. 🙂

well one cant ever stop learning and reading all thru ones life ..ps u can always correct me if i m wrong
this to me is also a 2 way street.
just finished wt the movie kinda nice a one time see
time to sleep or read!

Hey Ankur ,

:)) what do u think it is… its the trader community in the indian caste system. //
hmm..can learn a few business tricks from them 🙂
teach me the art of haggling 🙂

donkeys, asses, and mules also belong to the same category… and so do the pegasus and unicorns… so make ur pick //
If Pegasus is in the same category then I am going for a ‘conversion’ 😉

Hi Pragati..
Sorry about raking things up again. I think I did not give a clear picture as to what I was getting at in yesterday’s discussion. I was and still am very heistant about talking about another religion or law. But Ankur pointed out that it is better to spell it out than leave ambiguity…and he is right . So here goes…

//The Legislature by definition is supposed to function independent of a
particular religion. It’s funny that you would say this, esp. in a country like India, that is supposedly democratic. In fact, if you have Hindu Marriage Act for Hindus, you even have a Special Marriage Act that you could follow.

You only re-inforced what I said That laws are binding and religion is not.
Family laws are based on different religions. There are different family
laws for different religions.

[I choose not talk about the workings of any other family law.]

Don’t know what you mean by this.

well..I do not want to elaborate..so I am leaving it at that. //

I was comparing Hindu family law with Muslim family law.

The law that is passed for Hindus goes by the latest trend in the society and does not go by any scripts or the rules laid down by religious leaders.

What the legilature feels is necessary for the society , it can go ahead and
create laws. No religious leader can interfere or no person would be
considered an ‘outcast’ .

But in Muslim law the religious leaders have a great impact on how the laws are laid…the ultimate deciding authority is ‘Quran’ and not the legislature.

I wld suggest u go throo the topic on divorce procedure and maintenance for
wives in both Hindu and Muslim laws .
Another one that may interest u is sec.125 Crpc and its applicability to wives belonging to various religions.
Just a friendly suggestion..

So did u feel sleepy all day long ? :))

@Sree, thank you for your comment 🙂 Good that you decided to elaborate your points..

[Another one that may interest u is sec.125 Crpc and its applicability to wives belonging to various religions.
Just a friendly suggestion..]

I have a degree in law 🙂

[So did u feel sleepy all day long ? :))]

Not really. I made it a point not to sleep so that I can resume my “normal” cycle, whatever that is. Haha.

//I have a degree in law :)//
so this has become a battlefield of 2 lawyers…. let me know if u gals want any munitions.

@sree…
ya baniya can smell an opportunity from a mile away 🙂

Hi Pragati

I have a degree in law //
I thght as much when u were mentioning ‘Special marriage act ‘ .

[So did u feel sleepy all day long ? :))]

Not really. I made it a point not to sleep so that I can resume my “normal” cycle, whatever that is. Haha. //
yeah..what u r advised to do when u r suffering from jet-lag
(but the ppl who advice always doze off ) :))

[so this has become a battlefield of 2 lawyers…. let me know if u gals want any munitions]

Haha..no way! 🙂 No fireworks here. Btw, if we need ammos, then our words are enough 😉

[Hey Ankur the clever one…u can actually do some chamber work for us
what say u , Pragati ?]

Yeah, not bad. He would make a nice paralegal. I am not practising law though. I am into Finance now 🙂

//first the british were n r always pro pak as they have always feared a resurgent India//
yups divide and rule is always the best policy.. after all a divided house will always fall.

//remember in history we did influence most south asia and still do to a smaller extent….//
in history yes.. but i doubt if Indian policies matter SE Asia a lot. China, America and Japan wield more power… but that is again debatable.

//most of the agreements from partition deed and giving hindu dominated karachi to pakistan to the water treaty were biased towards pakis//
i always thought Congress representation was present when the treaty were signed.

//Gandhi always thought that he could convince and appease muslims into not wanting partition and the said amt was just a failed attempt at that//
atleast he tried… 🙂

//nyways in his later yrs he was highly irrational//
yups..

//i read somewhere about his real wish to die a martyrs death ,//
i see a lot of leaders who want to remembered long after they are gone.. no harm in that actually

//I don’t refute Gandhi’s theory of non-violence. //
actually i think it in a totally different way…. Firstly if I see Gandhi’s role in Boer Wars (SA) I cannot think this is one guy who shuns violence and can go to any lengths for justice… he is a plain politician.

//He may be a saint but he is not a politician. //
i see him as a politician and nothing more.

The reason why Indian freedom struggle did not yield any result was because:
1) Indians still do not know what is India.
2) There was no unity.
3) people did not know what they were missing because of the enslavement.

non violence alone can never bring you freedom, its the awareness and the will power to fight for independence that will force the enemy to flee.

Congress was actually a Rich and middle class elite’s party. Gandhi through his protests against indigo farming, salt tax etc.. expanded its base to the commoners… hence paving a way with the common man to associate itself with it. so slowly and steadily he picked up one issue after another and increased our awareness against the oppression by the British.

If he had taken the path of violence.. he would not be able to inspire and motivate people in the extend he did.. and hence he took up non-violence… after all if u cannot shoot a peaceful man in khadi as easily as u can shoot an outlaw.

//yes jinha was initially using it as a bargaining tool latter after the separation from russi and constant illness his attitude changed //
politics is like a sentimental chaotic system.. all that matters is how the thing starts.. because sooner or later it is going to gain momentum…. and deviate from the orignal conception.

//“ The origin of the appalling carnage- we believe the worst communal riot in India’s history- was a political demonstration by the Muslim League//
never knew about it.. but ya it was the worst way for both the countries to start a new life.

//nyways post independence look at the migration of hindus from bangladesh and pakistan the jnk govt still doesnt give citizenship to most who fled pak using kashmir after 1950 ..//
its their local issue .. they will sort it out.

//also ur last contention is also quite wrong family and state supported entrepreneurs only flourished during the indira and socialist era (those who paid into congress coffers only got permits )//
yes the process started in the 60ies and the displaced families on both sides of the border started minting money… isn’t it a strange coincidence that army in Pak and congress in india (both being the central controlling figures) paved the way for their success.

@sree…
done… I can be your assistant as long as u send me all ur beautiful and single clients.

@pragati..
finance.. hmmm even better.. so u can make me as ur financial assistant and give me wall street salary 🙂
wow 2 job offers in a single day.. can the day get any better? 😀

.. can the day get any better? //
sure !
1.Juniors dont get paid 🙂
2. U can assist all my single , gorgeous and vibrant clients to the register office…the handsome groom wld meet u guys there :))
3.There is another category of single beautiful clients…but dont let me talk about them 😉

//3.There is another category of single beautiful clients…but dont let me talk about them ;-)//
tell me more about them 🙂
i hope they make it worth my while

hmm..I tght I already told u ! The only help with the law practice is in scrutinising the documents and drawing the agreements 🙂
cool , eh ?

btw…congrats on the century !

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